HOOD SS Population Survey 19:00-22:00 cet Options

[Biter]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at the make up of SS
nations and class on the HOOD server on a Friday evening when the server is
busy. I did this by noting the name of the player and his ship type to
prevent duplicates, until I reached 50 players.

I did this really to show how the imbalance of the kM SS is effecting the
make up of the SS population on the server. It would be nice to see this
recognised by SDE and evaluated when balancing the ships when the SS4 is
introduced.


kM SS1 7 players
kM SS2 9 players
kM SS3 22 players

UK SS1 1 player
UK SS2 2 players
UK SS3

Ijn SS1 1 player
Ijn SS2 1 player
Ijn SS3 2 player

US SS1 2 players
US SS2 2 players
US SS3 1 player

kM Subs = 76%

Thanks for looking ^^

[zakdorn]

Well, I'm driving two different subs (German and Japanese) and I believe I
can judge that German subs are not overpowered.
For one thing (even if all nations had the same strength) there'd still be
more players driving German ships than other nations', simply because this
is a European server. Furthermore German subs are best at figthing other
subs. Therefore when I see a lot of subs in a battle room already I'm more
likely to switch to my Type VIIC. When there are only few subs, I'd switch
back to my Kaidai.
And last but not least: I haven't counted on Bismarck, but I believe the
number of German subs is 50% at most.

[nemarsde]

You do tend to find SS players will tout another nation over KM with several
caveats though. Frex, _if_ there are few other SS, _if_ up against noob players,
_if_ engaging at max range, etc., then the X SS3 is better than KM.

But the simple truth is, KM SS3 is used almost exclusively in the (Hood) league
and in Great Battles. This is because you can't control the conditions in a
room, so on average KM SS3 will be better.

[Thanok]

KM Subs are the easiest subs to play. I remember several ppl who asked wich
nation they should choose for the best just for fun sub. Well, the answer is KM^^
When driving a KM Sub your aiming isnt that important, you are able to reach the
enemy ships while you can cause still a good damage.
One player told me that it was a big mistake to take KM as first Nation, because
he wasnt used to the IJN Sub playstyle, wich was his second sub.

[Biter]

I'm not trying to start a debate on if the kM SS class is overpowered. The hard
data speaks for itself. All the SS are about the same for attacking Battleships
etc but the kM class is not balanced for SS V SS battles as it is vastly
superior in this role due to proxi torps. When the only real threat to an SS is
another SS or an ASW DD this weights the bias on which nation you choose in a
big way.

Imagine if one nation of BB had super FCS that adjusted accuracy making your
gunnery much less important and attack scores were generally much higher. Then
imagine 75% of the server playing the same nation ^^

Just pointing out the facts for the man in charge :o)

[dapprman]

You need very little intelligence to play a sub in this game, you need zero to
play a KM one due to those proxy torpedoes.

In GB if you go BB/CV hunting then the Kadai, from my experience, is a lot
better for over all damage as it carries more torps which also do more damage.
However in a fleet environment, subs are primarily hunting each other at which
point proxy torps become the key.

Lets face it, KM subs are faster, which means they can go further under water,
their torps only need to come within ~1 cm of the target to explode for full
damage, plus then turn and dive more quickly.

Oh and I do have both KM and IJN SS3. I started with the former and created the
latter for fleet actions.

[radi24]

Don't know (and dont care) about Bismarck SS Population, but additionally to the
Hood SS Population I can give you the HoD SS Population :D

It is probably not 100% perfect, but it gives a pretty much estimate.
I only counted the highest SS of a nation and of course some player have more
than one SS nation.

KM SS3: 33
IJN SS3: 12
USN SS3: 7
UK SS3: 4

KM SS2: 6
IJN SS2: 2
USN SS2: 2
UK SS2: 1

KM SS1: 2
IJN SS1: 3
USN SS1: 0
UK SS1: 1

But a lot of people with KM SS3 are not a regular SS-player (like me for instance).

[jheakryna]

those proxy torps are just... pain the place where the sun doesn't shine.

it doesn't make any sence for a DD or FF to hunt KM subs.

subs of other nations... you can outdance the torps, and dodge them. you
know, when the torp is passing left within a millimeter of your ship, and
you turn right when it passes behind the angle point of your ship so it
doesn't hit the back after while it passes...

that's how torp dodging works for those IJN torps from a kitakami - but
with KM sub torps - lol.
when you see the torp is being shot at where your ship turns, you can just
alt tab out and surf another website or something, since you can't really
escape those.

[GForceT1]

the thing i find funny is that the km ss3 can go 40 knots with good engie.....

40 knots....

Try to run away from that...

Guess SS doesnt mean Slow Ship....

and as a Bonus the proximity torps with HUGE splash damage...


*Above is my personal statement and not the opinion of TeamNF

[burnstreet]

I am not a sub player...
When, driving my Monty, I see a VIIc near me, I turn away, catch 3-4 torps, wait
a minute and continue like nothing happened. Thats the normal case.
If it is a US or IJN SS3, most of the time I have much bigger problems.
UK... can't remember being attacked by one.

It would be nice to see more non-KM SS, for diversity.

[hitme]

You can go 40 knts with any SS3, not just KM (although I must admit I haven't
seen an UK SS3 reach 40 yet)

But I agree, playing with KM sub is like playing the game in easy mode. You
don't really have to aim, you have less duds and you can do some tricks that are
not possible with other subs. All this becouse they have proximity torps. If two
subs face each other and one of them is automatically at huge disadvantage just
becouse it's from different nation, then it's a balance issue that needs some
tinkering. I don't say this becouse I have something against KM proxytorps, it's
just an observation I have made from experience (I have all of them and love
most of them). Also I would like that in fleetbattles it wouldn't be such a
no-brainer when choosing what sub to use.

I would like to see KM subs having a choise between proxy torps and normal ones.
Then proxytorps could be balanced by making them weaker from normal ones. This
would allow KM subs be balanced without removing proxytorps or nerffing them
into oblivion.

[phantom3442]

hey am i counted on the km ss1 cause i only played my sub often? XD... yep...
every gb i entered many of the sub player are km ss3... i rarely see uk and rn
ss3...

[skowron]

Biter good job, many noticed the fact but U wrote it
all things like dive time, turning force etc is enough to give big advantage to
km ss. proxy torpedos is just one of the biggest fail of programmers
I dont think we can find worst balanced thing in nf
I wonder if it will be noticed during ss4 implemantation and balancing patch

[harryg]

Though the proxy torps are a great advantage in 1 vs. 1 it's not that easy for
KM subs.
In my Kadai i normally only need 1 (good aimed) torp to destroy or heavily
damage a KM SS. In the other way round the KM SS need at least 2 or 3 of those.
KM torps do only 2/3 of the damage of other nations torps I guess.

I agree that reducing the proximity of those torps a little(!) would be a good
idea but for me it's also OK the way it is.

I try to avoid 1 vs. 1 situations if I can which normally is possible if there
are only few subs in the room. If there are many I go with another SS (KM
prefered) and try to use my heavier torps for sinking the opposite SS which
engaged my KM teammember.

[JonasDK]

What you could do to reduce the advantage of the Proximity torps (I know
this is going alittle off topic, but still about KM subs..), is actually just
reducing either the damage of the splash, so you force them to hit directly
for fully damage, and if they miss, they still explode, but does less damage.
OR.. Reduce the splash range, or the range they need to be at before they
trigger. So if they explode by 1 cm of the ship, it needs to pass by at etc .5
cm to trigger. Otherwise it goes like any other missing torps, just passing
by ;).

I don't mind the proximity myself really, since the damage of KM torps just
isn't the same as any other torpedo. Don't know the damage of the KM
subs torpedoes, (yet) but it's properly around the 15-16k damage. A
Junsen does 20k damage, so I'd prefer sailing that, instead of a KM sub.
I'd rather take damage over proximity, cause you just can't have it that
easy.

And for another fact.. You can't just remove the proximity. This game is
kinda build up as going so realistic to the real WW2 ships as possible, and
it's done nicely. Okay having a few ships who were only planned isn't all
real, but rather that instead of having ships the developers just creates.
That would be ugly (lol).. The German subs had proximity, the Japanese
had torpedoes using another way of sailing force, instead of being pushed
by compressed air, they used some fuel. Giving a lovely range. You can't
change the way that were, and changing that in-game cause of a few
players who complains, would remove the realistic part of the game.
You COULD reduce the damage, but then I think you will get a lot KM sub
players complaining. And what you do NOT want - ever, is unhappy
customer. Some may be annoyed by the proximity, but you just cant please
everyone. What you tho could do, is making the Bulge a little stronger, and
properly a bit lighter, so more would put on bulge, to withstand the
torpedoes. Simple as that :-)..

[Biter]

Why do people think kM Torpedo is weak? This is always used as an argument not to balance the kM subs! but it is not true.

1st Ijn 22191 Damage
2nd kM 20860 Damage
3rd US 20231 Damage
4th UK 19747 Damage

This combined with the proxi torp and lowest dud rate gives them total imbalance. If you remove the proxi torp you would better balance the SS class. The kM sub would still be the fastest in a straight line and turning.

[nemarsde]

The myth is caused by most proximity torp hits being off-centre whilst causing splash damage.

You'll notice two things in testing torps:

1. That torpedo hits to the amidships or keel (the horizontal or vertical centre-line) do most damage.

2. Direct hits do more damage than splash damage.

To get the most tactical advantage out of KM SS, you close with the enemy and torp them head on; giving you like a 20-mm wide target and them more like a 4-mm wide target. Proximity torps targeted in this way rarely hit the SS on the tip of the nose, they explode somewhere along the hull doing splash damage, so just about the minimum damage possible. But damage nonetheless. Whereas the SS without proximity torps will more likely miss or dud.

Many KM SS players use a similar tactic on BBs, so it all gives an illusion that KM SS have the least damaging torps when in fact it's how they're used that minimises the damage.

[narfi]

i probably said it already like 10 times, but i do it again

there is only one thing that should be changed on proxi torps.

The fact that they have 3 chances to explode while others only have ONE.

Entering Proxi range - 1st chance
Hitting ship itself - 2nd chance
Leaving proxi range - 3rd chance


remove this to only one chance on entering the proxy range, and KM subs are perfect and balanced.

Its only the kinda non existing dud torps that makes them unbalanced atm.

[Giant]

my name was there ? i love km subs ^^

[GodSp33d]

lol... here we go again...


why you think I started a poll... on removing proxi ability vs submarines on KM in general ???

to BALANCE SUBS !!!

everyone plays KM sub (except some dedicated sub drivers)

sad to see you didnt include MN subs in there...